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SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : O kay, you say whatever you like. It is not going to make any difference to us (Interruptions). It is not going to change the situation. In the past two-three months, there has not been a single incident except the one which he mentioned, in which six innocent people were killed and I had made a reference to that incident here also. At that time also, I had made it crystal clear that if innocent people are gunned down, then our security forces will take necessary action to instill a feeling of security in the minds of the people. We don’t consider it as an act of bravery or excellence on our part, but we are forced to take stringent action because of our compulsions. Right now, one of our hon. Lady Members said that if people get alienated, they will seek aid from outside forces. If any foreign power tries to outrage the sanctity of our borders (Interruptions) then even if it becomes necessary for lakhs of people to sacrifice their lives to protect the unity and integrity of the nation, they will be prepared for that (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to say in all humility, that if any force, internal or external, tries to harm the unity of India, we are ready to sacrifice even thousands or lakhs of people for maintaining the integrity of our country. It is the convention of our country to make sacrifice for maintaining its integrity and in the past they have done so many times. One such example in the history is of Abraham Lincoln who had to face civil war to maintain the integrity of his country. India too has that element of sacrifice and we will put our entire might at stake to maintain the unity of the country.

I want to make it clear to you that there is no doubt in it. As many times it has been propagated that I have stated that I shall hold discussion on the Khalistan issue also. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is not the point. When I was speaking in the Press Club in Delhi, a correspondent of a newspaper asked me whether I would talk to the militants if they come forward to hold talks? I replied that I would talk to everybody. He querried further whether I would talk to them if they raise the issue of Khalistan. I said that I would talk to them as well. After that he asked me as to what would be my reply if they put forth the demand of Khalistan? I told him that my reply would be making a foolish talk. I had told that I would not put any pre-condition to the effect that I would not see their face if they talk of Khalistan. I had said that if they put forth such demand, I would tell them that this is meaningless and unrealistic and is against the dignity of the country. My friend Rajdevji said that I was ready to talk with them in some foreign land. I do not know who told him this? Talks will be held with the people of India and within the boundaries of the country including Golden Temple but not on foreign soil. So I had never desired as such because I am not interested in visiting the foreign countries like others. I rarely go to foreig ncountry. Hence I want to make it clear that I do not wish to go to the foreign country. So I never intend to hold talk with the two or four citizens on the country’s problems out of the boundaries of India. Rather, I always insist on having any such talk within the boundaries of the country only. Today what I am saying here is not a sort of revealation, that they had offered me to talk in the Golden Temple in Amritsar and I accepted their offer.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, so many things were said about me. When I said that there would be a talk with the terrorists, it has been said by Shri Saifuddin Choudhary that the offer of talks will send a wrong signal. Whenever I say anything, Mr. Saifuddin Choudhary finds a wrong signal in it. But the truth is that no wrong signal has been sent and they are ready to talk for which they have been contacting me. What am I to do if Rajdevji is angry because they do not contact us through Shri Simranjit Singh Mann. I cannot force them to come to us only after acknowledging Shri Simranjit Singh Mann as their leader. Not only one but people from a number of Panthic Committees have contacted me and they want to hold peaceful talks. They want to find out some way out within the framwork of Indian constitution. However, I would like to say that every time all the details of such talk cannot be given into the newspapers or in the Parliament. I think such talk does not give any wrong signal to anyone. They are ready to have talks and for that they are taking all positive steps. Mr. Speaker, Sir, through you I would like to say that whether it is Punjab problem or Kashmir problem during the last two months all the terrorist groups have expressed their willingness to find out the solution through talks. How much success we will be getting in this respect, I cannot say. But efforts should continue. We are not imposing any restriction upon them. We have told them that if they want certain facilities for holding talks we are ready to provide the same to them. They are afraid that they will be get arrested, if they come to India. But we will not take such step. If they are out of the country and come here at our instance and we have informed them that if our talks fail, they will be escorted out of the country. No one will be put behind the bars forcibly. If they come here on our request. I would like to reiterate the same assurance through this House.

So far as the question of contacting other countries is concerned, I would like to say that we have been doing this and succeeded also. Whether it is not a fact that British Government and Government of U.S. A. have stated that Pakistan should stop helping the terrorists in Kashmir. A few days back when an unfortunate incident took place in Kashmir the Pakistan Radio and Television had stated that the terrorists in Kashmir did a wrong thing and to kidnap a woman is not a good thing. We have been trying to find out a solution but Rome cannot be built in a day. We are trying from outside India also but I do not think that any problem of our country can be solved with the help of outsiders. We are telling the other countries that if some disturbances are created in our country and if they support them that will not be in their interest. It is for the first time that Britain has stated that after the Shimla Agreement, all the earlier agreements between India and Pakistan stand superseded. Only Shimla Agreement exists. It is for the first time, also that America has stated that Pakistan should stop talking of self-determination in regard to Kashmir and they should have no relation with the terrorists. Pakistan has also stated for the first time that if the terrorists create disturbances in Punjab or Kashmir, they will take action against them. Whether they take action or not, this I cannot say but if someone promises something, I consider it my duty to believe him.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to ask again as to why the question of religion is raised? Whether our friend Shri Atinder Pal will now interpret the tenets of Sikh religion which have been laid down by various sikh Gurus from Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh? Whether a person who pronounces ‘EK ONKAR SAT NAAM’ would demand secession of Punjab because there is rule of Brahamans in Delhi? Many Saints have sung the glory of Ram and Krishna in Guru-Vani. Our diverse civilizations and cultures take us to new direction. All these find place in Guruvani. I do not want to go deep into the Sikh religion as I do not know much about it. They have the knowledge. The Sikh religion was founded to check atrocities being committed on the Hindu religion. The Sikh religion has always stood against injustice and atrocity. Guru Teg Bahadur came to Delhi from Amritsar only to protect the sacred thread (Jeneau) and choti of the Pundits of Kashmir. Shri Advaniji or Shri Atinder Pal ji may be having much knowledge of religions. I want to tell Shri Advaniji that Hindu religion is not different from the other religions. Hindu religion has taught us all to live together in the country. Hindu religion has adjusted and absorbed all the other religions. We did not ignore any one. We did not make any kind of discrimination against anyone. Our Gurudwaras are the bright symbols of our civilization and culture. We are all proud of these Gurudwaras. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in 1983-84 when Operation Blue Star was conducted in Amritsar, I had said that this is an effort to disregard our great traditions. It will hurt the feelings of the people of our country. I said this not to gain support or vote of anyone. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe that any great tradition is founded after making the sacrifice by crores of people. Whosoever overlooks this sacrifice history will not forgive him.

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : I agree with Mayawatiji. Many distortions came into the Hindu religion. Distortions are not religion. Religion does not teach secessionism. Religion is eternal. There come distortions in the society for a short term and society goes astray because of these distortions. Do not call these distortions or this bewilderness a religion. Untouchability has not been one of the basic features of Hindu religion. We have a tradition of Lord Rama in our country. Lord Rama ate even the half eaten plums of Shabari... (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : From time to time, there come distortions in every religion in the world. No religion devoted follows the path shown by its great saints. The same thing happened in the Hindu religion also. We should remove those distortions. We should adopt the good things while shun away the evils. I accept that the Sikhs have their own principles and traditions. They have tradition of valour and sacrifice. But in the name of these traditions, you want to secede from India and divide India. You want to divide the country on religious grounds. Have you ever thought about Nanded Sahib? Have you ever thought about Patna Sahib? Have you ever thought as to why Guru Nanak wandered from place to place? He wandered not for a few people, he wandered to bring various civilisations and cultures of this country closer. Today, we are trying to break that unity of cultures. Therefore, I am in favour of finding a solution of the Punjab problem through dialogue and discussions.

Our friend, Shri Indrajit raised a political question whether Lok Sabha elections will be held in Punjab? Just now, I cannot anything. But I too understand this argument that the Assembly elections should also be held along with Lok Sabha elections. We will have to give an assurance to the politicians of Punjab that : democratic institutions will not be used to shatter democracy and to shatter the integrity and unity of this country.

Who is prepared to give this assurance? You cannot do that. India is a vast country and its vastness is our power. But if I commit suicide today in the hope of next birth, it would not be wise... (Interruptions)... If I order the elections in Punjab in the name of the democracy, it would mean something else. I don’t think it will be of any use. If there is any doubt, we should have to remove that doubt. Don’t commit suicide in the hope of next birth. This is my humble request. We are in favour of early elections. We may be able to hold elections in the next two months. I do not think it is impossible. We are getting some signals. These signals are different from those received by Shri Saifuddin. It appears from those signals that elections could be held in Punjab in the next twothree months and we would be able to hold elections not only in Punjab and Kashmir but in all the States. Today, the situation is grave. We have to move this motion with heart. I am confident that you will support this motion. (Interruptions)