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THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, the concern expressed over Punjab problem is but natural. I do agree that there is no improvement in the situation in Punjab. It is also true that apprehensions and terror is there among the people of Punjab. But the situation has not deteriorated to that extent that we cannot make efforts to improve it. But it is not true as some Members have said that it appears that Khalistan has been made there and no one is secured in Punjab. It is true that some dictates have been issued by the so called terrorists there to put some restriction one wearing dresses and speaking a particular language. These dictates came into force when these were discussed in Chandigarh and they were followed by many Government departments also. A situation arised there when the Hindi bulletins from All India Radio and Doordarshan were stopped. We do not say that situation has taken a drastic turn. That situation is not there in Chandigarh. We have taken certain steps and I do not want to go into the details of those steps, Hindi bulletins have again been started from All India Radio, Chandigarh and Doordarshan Centre about ten days ago. Now, no one is harassing for wearing particular dress or speaking particular language there. This has been the situation in Chandigarh for last one week. This has happened because we tried to remove the drawbacks existing in the administration of Chandigarh. We believe that it is the responsibility of the Government that every citizen should feel secured but I do not say that no untoward incident would take place but we have provided enough security forces which were required to provide security to the people and to boost morale and strengthening will power of the people. Such steps have been taken by the Government and the results thereof are also coming before us.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know that certain things are said because of the fear and in fear our own shadow looks like a ghost to us. We cannot solve the problemlike this. We have to resist the forces, which are working for creation of such problems. Just now an hon. Member from Dhanbad has rightly said that to dispel fear we have to face them boldly. I agree that it is the duty of the Government and all of us to create an atmosphere in which the people can understand that terrorism or anything else can do no harm to us. He raised a matter regarding the incident occurred at Purulia and Dhanbad. It is a tragic incident and the Government is also concerned about it. I would like to inform the hon. Member that on the day of incident, the Government have announced highest gallantry award to the deceased S.P. Moreover, adequate assistance will also be given to the family members of the deceased. Just now I have received information that all the three culprits involved in the incident at Purulia and Dhanbad have been killed. One of them as killed yesterday and two have been killed today. It is not that the Government and the administration have not taken any step in this direction but it is like a chronic disease and its cure is not so easy. We have to make efforts to cure this chronic disease. I have listened to the speeches of the hon. Members. It is true that sometimes it creates apprehensions in the minds of the people. If we talk to anyone that may give wrong indication also. I do not understand as to how we can block the path of mutual talk. We have been trying for last 6-7 years to find out the solution of problems by repressive measures but if we have not succeeded in that the Parliament of the country has for the first time discovered the path of mutual talk. Is it not a fact that wherever we had discussions the results were always good? Not only once, but many a time, we had discussions. I do not want to go into the illustrations, nor do I want to go into the complete history. Whether it is Nagaland, Mizoram, Tamil Nadu or Tripura. There have been discussions not only in Gujarat but at various places, and as long as democracy survives the system of negotiations will continue. But if there is violation in negotiations and these cross the limits the results will not be so good. The example cited by Mr. Khurana in his speech is correct. I was listening to the recording of the Press conference at my office. I know what I have said, and whatever has come in the Press is correct. What did I say? A correspondent asked me whether I was ready for a constitutional amendment, if there was such a demand? In my reply, I said, if it results in any solution and the amendment is acceptable to Parliament and does not come in the way of unity and integrity of India, we should not hesitate to consider it. I would like to know whether Sarkaria Commission is not mentioned here almost everyday. If the Constitution is to be slightly amended for giving more rights to the States will it endanger the integrity, sovereignty and unity of our country? So, whenever we talk of the Constitution here, and perhaps Shri Khurana missed that sentence when I said that there won’t be any compromise on the unity and integrity of the country. We have repeatedly said, whether anybody will mention it or not, that the basic duty of the Government is to provide security to the public. There can be no compromise on the issue of security. Honourable, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to tell the people of the country and this House that if anybody approached us for talks, I have frankly told him that we can’t tolerate the killing of any innocent person, and if any innocent person is killed, it is the fundamental duty of the Government to give an answer for that and also to bring round the violators. The Government has to fulfil this duty in any case. There won’t be any discriminations. If I say that the name of Simranjeet Singh Mann is frequently mentioned, who says that innocent people are being killed and if you take action against the terrorists, we are also with you then. How can I say that you are not with us. I do not know that what limits you want to fix, the manner in which talks can be held. So if you give me a hint regarding the manner of holding the talks and the idiom to be adopted, I would say that holding of talks won’t be difficult for anybody. One should be clean-hearted about the circumstances. Our conscience should be clear regarding the extent to which we can go. The meaning of talks is not that if terrorists kill some innocent person and our Police and security forces should sit idle and if it would have been like that the Government would have not taken the steps it has taken there in Chandigarh last week. Not only that it is not so only in Chandigarh, I had told the top leaders about our scheme on Punjab. When I am frequently told to explain it in detail, it creates some difficulty. At certain occasions it is not feasible to give out certain details. But I would definitely say that, we have certainly said that we will take steps with regard to the situation in Ludhiana, Jallandhar and Amritsar in the same manner in which we have taken in case of Chandigarh, so that the people there can live with a sense of security. We have also decided that there are 128 villages where terrorism is at its peak. Special security arrangements have been made for those villages and the action has been initiated there for the last three days. We can’t wait for talks in connection with that. Because the situations are different. Dialogue with leader and a sense of security among the people should not be mixed together. So the Government has not hesitated to take administrative steps. Mr. Speaker. Sir, through you I would like to, convey to the House that it is not necessary that the Government should declare about all the steps taken by it through the newspapers. There are certain limits, certain difficulties in the administration itself, but I assure you that all the necessary action for the security of life would be taken. I would also tell you that it does not mean that Police and armed forces will be given a free hand. We have also said that if any person is suffering in Punjab or has any grievance or any injustice is done to anybody, he should approach us. We don’t want that any innocent person should be killed and no injustice should be done to innocent people. Government will try its best to save innocent people. So we have told the higher authorities to listen to such grievances. Government is also trying its best to listen to such complaints. If any special arrangements are possible in this regard, we shall have to do so. I would also like to say, that any officer should not have any such fear that after the elections the new Chief Minister will harass them after assuming the power, then I would assure all those officers through this House that whatever steps they take in the responsible discharge of their duties, whatever be the consequences, the responsibility of their security, and the security of their service will be taken by the Government. We feel that there should be no doubt in their minds regarding their security and welfare. We also know that there are some people who want that the feeling of terror should continue. So, I would have not said this in a casual manner, but a tendency is developing in Punjab these days that the officers should take every action after seriously thinking over them because the Government may change, and those people against whom the officers are taking action today may come in power, I would say to those officers and jawans of the security forces that their responsibility is towards this nation and its constitution, and they should discharge their duties. The whole nation will follow them. You won’t be subjected to excesses or any injustice, or unjust attitude. I want to tell the forces clearly that they won’t have to face any danger if they faithfully discharge their duties. There is another question, and that is, some people feel jealous or angry when I talk to Shri Nawaz Sharif on telephone. The reason is not known to me. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I talked to him thrice on telephone. Third time I gave him a ring, and that too to know Pakistan’s approach with regard to Gulf Crisis. He was not available, so I talked to him in the evening. I do not know why my friend Shri Gujral is feeling angry on this account. Any way, I respect him. He has a thorough knowledge of foreign policy about which I know nothing nor have I visited any foreign country. I have gone abroad a few times, so I claim a little knowledge of foreign policy. (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : I don’t say that I am at home in diplomacy. Mr. Speaker, Sir, if anybody gives me a ring should I say to him that I don’t want to talk to him on phone!

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : If somebody tell me on phone that he wants to improve relations with us, should I tell him : No. we don’t want to improve relations with you. We want to strain the relations. If the Prime Minister of Pakistan is eager to improve relations with us should I oppose it what are the intentions, objects of Pakistan is a different question. (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : If not you. somebody else must have said. Mr. Speaker, Sir, most humbly I would remind you what Mahatma Gandhi had said. He was assassinated on 30th January, 1948, before that he had said to the whole nation : “My first job would be to go to Pakistan because we have been divided into two, but we are one like brothers.” We shall have to follow the path of friendship. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru was the Prime Minister of this country for 17 years. He also confronted all kinds of difficulties and problems. Despite these difficulties he tried to improve relations with Pakistan. Diplomatic-level discussions were held with Pakistan on several occasions. Members will recall at least some of the incidents.

Sir, is it not true that after the 1965 war Shri Lai Bahadur Shastri went to Tashkent for talks? Is it not true that Shrimati Indira Gandhi held talks with Z.A. Bhutto at Simla and the Simla Agreement was the result thereof? From 1947 to 1990 Indian politics has had a tradition of solving problems through mutual dialogue. So why should there be any reluctance to adopt the same course in 1991?

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : Sir, the statements by Shri Gujral and Shri Yadav have boosted my morale. As to the question of being cautious, caution is not observed in talks alone. Caution is observed by increasing our level of preparedness. No effort is being spared on that account. If Pakistan or any other country has a bad intention towards India and thinks that India can be cheated by sweet talk, is fooling itself. Let no country have any wrong ideas about India. Sir, may I inform hon. Members that even though we are having discussions with an open heart there is an underlying caution in our approach. We do not believe in the political interpretation of such matters that talks are being held on a friendly note but intentions are anything but friendly. India is sincere about having friendly relations with Pakistan. If Nawaz Sharief says that he wants friendly relations with India, then I believe him. What he actually does to achieve it depends on him.

Sir, some members said that camps are being organised in Punjab. We are aware of that and understand that such things create tension in the country. Whenever there is an opportunity I raise this issue. My repeatedly saying that such camps exist, will not change the situation. Such training camps do exist and we are trying to deal with this situation.

Sir, the steps have been taken and hon. Members want to know what these steps are. For a long time there had been a proposal for barbed- wire fencing on the Indo-Pak border. Till one year back fencing had been done in about 80, 90 or 100 kilometres. The present position is that 120-122 kilometres of fencing has been done. No work was done during the last year. By April the entire length of 255 kilometres will have barbed-wire fencing. Floodlights have been installed up to 65 Kilometres and work on the rest is being undertaken. I even asked the Border Roads Organisation to finish the remaining work. The contractors, who are installing wires, have been told to complete the work by April failing which they will have to pay penalties. We have been given an assurance to that effect and I see no reason why should not the work be completed by April. But that will not solve the problem because, Sir, a large part of the border cannot be fenced. This area consists of barren land, rivers and ‘nullahs’. I am not very familiar with that terrain but those who are, say that fencing is not possible in that area.

For security on the border, the Border Security Force and the Army has been deployed. All this is not secret. If we deploy army on the border, we intimate Pakistan that we are doing so to check infiltrations. To the political leaders of Punjab also I have said that according to them the disturbances are caused by smugglers, bootleggers and antisocial elements and if we deploy army there to check their activities, they should not have any complaint against our action. Whatever we are doing, is being done openly. Of course, I am at fault for not taking the Press into confidence before taking any step. We have not publicised, our actions through the Press and I consider myself fully responsible for that. Secondly, the local people will have to be given some facilities. The process of recruitment to the Border Security Force has started there. Till some days back nobody was interested in joining B.S.F., but now many people are coming.

Special opportunities are being offered to them for entry into the armed forces. The Government is taking steps for the immediate implementation of the recommendations in respect of Punjab so that normalcy is restored in the State. But I don’t have a magic wand that can provide an instant remedy for a wound that has existed for the past 10 years. I have no miraculous powers to create a ‘Ram Rajya’ in a place that has seen so much turmoil in the past. ;We must have patience, selfcontrol and self-confidence. I am proud to say that majority of the State’s population is opposed to these tendencies. Despite all efforts they have not been able to instigate communal riots there. Today there were some disturbances in Patiala but in the evening we were informed that the situation is under control. Till now no incident in Punjab has taken a communal colour.

I am confident that every citizen of Punjab will foil any conspiracy to lend communal colour to incidents in Punjab. I have also been informed that there is scepticism about how a party of 62 members can amend the Constitution. I don’t know much about politics but this much I know that... (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : It is not proper to name anyone. An amendment in the Constitution will be made with everyone’s consent and it is not a question of a party of 62 members making amendments in the Constitution. It is not that I can give an assurance to someone that I shall amend the Constitution. It is others who give empty assurances, not me. I am aware of the limitations within which we have to work and I restrict my actions within those limitations. The days of giving empty assurances have gone and so people should not mind it.

Shri Chandra Shekhar : It is not that nobody will give such an assurance. It would be better if Shri Dandavate says that nobody should give such an assurance. In politics it has become a practice to give assurances regardless of whether they can be met or not. There are many examples that can be quoted in this context but that will not solve the problem or change the situation.

I would like to tell the leader of the Opposition that we may not have taken the Press into confidence or consulted with other hon. Members before taking steps but we did try to seek the advice of leaders of various political leaders. At that time our colleague Prof. Madhu Dandavate and his leader were not present and so I could not let them know about it.

I know that there are many leaders in that party, but due to certain reasons I couldn’t invite them. I am sorry for that and I want them to forgive me for this act of omission on my part. However, if Prof. Madhu Dandavate tells me about the people, who ought to be invited, then I shall certainly invite them. I would certainly like to mention here that I have informed the leaders of all parties, including that of the B.J.P., the C.P.I, the C.P.I(M) and the Congress Party in detail about the Government’s intentions, the Government’s plans, our constrains, our weakness and the difficulties we face, because the weakness of the Government is not just our headache, it is of all of us. It is of entire nation, it is something which this Government has inherited from its predecessors. However, here I don’t mean to say that a particular Government is responsible for the weakness, which permeates our national life today. We should all give a serious thought to it.

Many of our friends wondered, as to why in the name of caste and religion...(Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : I do not say that you didn’t turn up intentionally. I do accept that the delay might have happened on our part, but I would like to make a humble submission to you that we should sit together and seriously ponder over this issue, because if we close the doors of negotiation, then the only option left before us would be that of talking at the point of bayonet, which I am sure is not the right and easy way to solve such complex problems. We believe that the process of dialogue should continue. We would like one and all to come to the negotiating table and thrash out a solution.

My friend, Shri Madan Lal Khurana had, who is the well wisher of minorities, suggested that we should give a patient hearing to the views of the minorities in that State. I did have talks with them. Rather, it was with them that I held talks first. I had told them that the Government is aware of their problems and difficulties.

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : We talk with everyone about the problems confronting the entire nation. However, on the Punjab issue, I will hold talks only with the people of Punjab. I would certainly like to have a better understanding, among all of us. Chances are that, we may commit mistakes, we may take some hasty steps without giving adequate thought to its pros and cons, therefore, we would whole heartedly welcome the suggestions of one and all, including the hon. Members, to solve this vexed problem.

I would conclude, after putting forward just one more point. While formulating the plan, we have taken into consideration each and every suggestion and letters that the Government, the Ministry of Home Affairs, had received in the last one year. All those suggestions, which were found reasonable and practical were incorporated in the plan. We did not just take into consideration, the suggestions we have received in the “past two months, since we assumed office. Rather, I had prepared a list of all the suggestions received by the previous Government, of which I was a part. We are endeavouring to chalk out a programme, taking into consideration, all those suggestions, so that no one may have any grievance. We removed the deficiencies, wherever we found it. We would certainly come across many such deficiencies, until we are able to restore normalcy and establish an atmosphere of peace and tranquility in that State.

Lastly, I would like to say one more thing. We would certainly like to hold elections in Punjab. Although, we are very enthusiastic and committed about holding polls in that State, we also believe that the people of Punjab, especially those clamouring for elections, should come forward and endeavour to create an atmosphere conducive to elections. How is it possible to hold elections, if killings, acts of terrorism and mutual antagonism remains the order of the day. Election is not just another formality. Election is an event when crores of people come out of their homes and elect a popular Government. Democracy is, where people are able to express their opinion without any fear or favour. How is it possible to hold elections, in an atmosphere gripped with fear psychosis? I won’t give blank assurances. If elections are to be held in the State, then the clouds of fear and terror, that have enveloped the State should be removed and the responsibility to do this job, lies to a great extent, on the shoulders of those demanding elections in the State. I would like to assure them, that they don’t have to fear about anything, from the part of the Government. The Government has an open mind about solving the Punjab imbroglio, through consensus and through dialogue. Thank you. (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to make one thing clear that I will continue to talk of peace, till the last moment, even if Mr. Nawaz Sharif talks of war, everyday. War is fought, when the situation demands it and as I had said yesterday, Tulsidas has said in one of his quartets :

“Soor Samar Karni Karhin, Kahi na janavahin aapu,

Vidyaman Ran Pai Ripu, Kayar Kathahin Pratapu”

Therefore, I won’t indulge in meaningless utterances. This is the first point. We would like good sense to prevail over every one and no one should talk of war. Mr. Speaker, Sir, here, when through you, we are talking of the need to put an end to the hostilities in the Gulf, at least I won’t talk of going into a war with our neighbour. I would not like to comment upon the second question, that the Hon. Member has raised, but I would like to clarify this impression. I did not say that we are going to concentrate only in these three districts. I had said that special security arrangements would be made in for these three towns and 128 villages. However, because you are compelling us, I would like to mention here that it has been said that, security arrangements in Punjab can be further tightened, if 75 more companies are despatched. We have already despatched 50-60 companies. Within the next three four days, the remaining enforcements would also be despatched. I would even say that even a hundred companies would be despatched, if necessary, for our main objective is to instill a sense of security in the minds of the people of Punjab. The Police has been told in clear terms that innocent people should not suffer in anti-terrorist operations, but at the same time, they should not remain silent spectators to gruesome and barbaric acts committed on innocent people.

I forgot the third question. Ah, yes, so far as Simranjeet Singh Mann’s statements are concerned, I don’t want to comment. I am concerned and responsible for only the talks I hold with him. Even you people make statements about me, almost everyday. Similarly he also dishes out statements, but I am least affected by these statements.

THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would not have replied to this baseless allegation if it had been levelled against me only. But since charge has been levelled against the Congress Party as well, I must make it clear that no Member or person of the Congress Party ever had a talk regarding the Bofors issue with us. (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : Mr. Speaker, Sir, whosoever investigates the Bofors case, I do not consider him more than a Sub-Inspector. I have no objection if any person adds his name to that list. Secondly, I would like to request Khurana Saheb not to worry about by credibility. For a long time many attempts have been made to tarnish my image. It has remained unscathed and shall remain so (Interruptions)

SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR : Mr. Speaker, Sir, Khuranaji has come to know about the two culprits. He may tell those two names if he so desires. But I have no information regarding them. He should not conceal those names if he has got the information. But he should not create any misunderstanding through such baseless talk. If he knows, he should certainly reveal those names. (Interruptions)